hehehehe ready when you are...

To the person that has been posting as "unregistered"....

opinions are one thing, it is good to consider the opinions of others whether you agree with them or not and let's face it, if everyone had the same thoughts and agreed on everything we would never come up with anything new, however, in expressing your opinion there isn't a need to indulge in name calling and shouting at the users. Try debating the subject in a reasonable manner, people are generally more accommodating of your thoughts.

Just found this forum and would like to help out with a few points. I want to try and cover as many as possible so my response will be more than I have time to post now but will follow soon.

I'm glad this is finally being discussed in a reasonable manner, Chillit I have to say I have resented your view (and Toad's for that matter) through out but can see from your last few messages you are willing to look at the information presented. Could I ask what specifcally you would like answers to and I'll see if I can help out. Also would it be unreasonable to ask where some of your facts have come from? I know you say personal experience but is it all that or has some been passed on via other shop keepers?

Sorry I'm not registered on this forum but I'm not into these kind of things, this is of particular interest to me as I love the Mop and look forward to it every year. I'd love to see shop keepers working with the showmen, although many wouldn't belive it to read some of these messages, a lot of shops already do. To help identify myself I will be Mop Fan in my title each time I post, hope this is ok with everyone.

Can I also agree with the thoughts of others that name calling and so forth isn't going to get us anywhere we need to be rational about this.

There is a lot of false information portrayed about the mop and much of that comes from one source. If we can discuss this rationally maybe we can put some of the rumours down once and for all.

Everything I have put on here is first hand personal experience, apart from the bother the police had, and that came from an officer who was there, in amongst it. (I have just reread everything i wrote to check that!)
For the record, I say again, I don't want to stop the mop. I would realy like it to be a lot more traditional, preferably steam powered OR moved to the racecourse. I would like to know what, exactly the charter says,and when it came into force, and what sort of stone it is carved in! And just out of idle curiosity, I would like to know how much money 'the town' makes out of it, and how much the council gets.
I would also on a side note like to know where so 'many' unregistered posters sprung from?
I quite liked the fair that came to Warwick for the victorian evening.

For someone called 'unregistered ' who is not into 'this sort of thing-namely registering on this site------------ you certainly have plenty to say.! and much of it not very pleasantly.
I had to smile---well laugh out loud,--let smaller rides plug into the small shopkeepers electricity ??
What planet are you on!
I had a business until 3 years ago and no way would I have allowed that to happen. Businesses have a higher rate of electricity for a start, they pay rates- not council tax, also extra for waste bins, and water rates etc. Everyone struggles these days, especially the smallish shops.
Who gets the money from these stalls at the mop? Not the shopkeepers. and
I'm not sure it brings any more trade to the local shops.
the punters are too busy enjoying the rides etc.

We too have Victorian evenings , but it was a waste of time for some shops to open. Anyway I liked to have a look around too.
I must say that I have read and joined in many heated discussions on this WOL site and have never come across any unpleasantness or name calling until now-(note well 'unregistered'!)
We all have our own opinions, but there are more polite ways of expressing them.
I particularly found the remark "lets campaign to get Chillits shop closed down" childish and very silly.
For God's sake you -nor I- know the person.
Just because we write anonimously does not mean we can be vitriolic.

Most rides run on 415 volts ( 3 phase ) or 110 volts.
I had to smile---well laugh out loud,--let smaller rides plug into the small shopkeepers electricity ??
What planet are you on!

Best to change the username section. Although being unregistered anyone can pretend to be you, as you can see. With a heated debate, it may be better to register properly.

I do however, appreciate the constructive manner in which you have aired your views, so that may be an easier way to identify you

Enjoy.

Oh dear, it's all getting rather personal and unpleasant - not at all what an open forum should be about.
Let's have a few facts.
Several years ago the council sought very expensive legal opinion (in conjunction with Stratford) as to the legal standing of the mop. That opinion said there is NO charter giving the showmans guild the right to hold a mop. There IS a charter that says there CAN be a mop fair BUT it does not have to be run by anyone in particular. The event is OWNED by the council (us) and they can (and should but don't - which is illegal) put the contract out to tender. They don't because the showmans guild seem to have a stranglehold over the council. This was evidenced by the joke 'review' of 2005 when all the evidence from all the parties, including the councils own officers, said that the mop should not continue in it's present form. For some reason (never explained fully) the committee (none of whom actually live in the town and are therefore immune from the misery it causes) decided to award the showmans guild another contract. There was (and is) total dismay at how they arrived at this! Even when the chamber of trade got the full papers under the freedom of information act it didn't answer the question!
The chamber of trade is currently trying to find out how much extra the showmans guild will pay to compensate us for the lost car parking revenue when the streets and car parks are closed.
This is a highly emotive subject but I do hope we can air of differing views with some decorum.

Wish we still had our statutes fair on the back way car park, We put the dickens fair there now but it's not the same.

I've not actually been to the warwick mpo, but all this debate has certainly sparked my interest to see what all the fuss is about - lol

Honestly, Optrex, don't bother. Come over for the Victorian Evening on 30th November - it's brilliant.

Ooops, sorry - it's actually on 29th November.

I just checked the train service from Nuneaton. Nuneaton - Birmingham walk to Moor Street then Moor Street - Warwick. Not really an option. Will check the buses. Would imagine it to be busy time that night so parking would be in short supply? I don't know Warwick very well so might be wrong.

Before I start Cathidaw, I’m not all the unregistered people that have put messages on here I do believe from the different writing styles that they are a number of individuals. If you had read my message you would see that I said I would identify myself in the description to avoid confusion. I also supported the moderator’s opinion that rational discussion was the best approach. I’m not registered because I’m not into computers particularly and assume you need to have email and so forth to register. Sorry if this offends you but we’re not all up to the same standard with modern technology and I’m making my best attempt to help with a subject very close to my heart. Also the suggestion of campaigning to close Chillit’s shop could be viewed as ‘childish and very silly’ but he suggested doing that to the mop so this was probably a joke which I believe by his response he took it to be? So whoever you are please, respectfully, back off!!

Ok let’s return to this in a rational manner and try to answer a few of the points raised, the mop was granted a Royal Charter in the 1300’s, apologies I don’t have the exact date to hand it’s amongst my notes somewhere but can’t just put my hand on it. King Edward III granted it so it was sometime during his reign. It states the timing, which is always the weekend of the Saturday after the 12th and the following weekend, so I assume the reason the council doesn’t personally inform shop keepers is because it is common local knowledge. The 12th is the date all the local Mop’s, Stratford, Southam Banbury and so forth revolve around, each one being either on it or specific days following it. I have never got to the bottom of the 12th being significant but believe it to be to do with harvesting being completed. Chillit your findings interest me, I have not come across any of these historic items before, where did they come from as I would like to learn more?

There is a document I stumbled on through Google which originated from the council that has a break down of each of the costs and a number of things on it. It is a bit dated now as it relates to the 2004 and 2005 Mop Fairs but the basics are probably much the same with a similar increase in prices each year as there was between the two specified. The Showmen’s Guild pay agreed costs to the Council to cover things such as removal of street furniture, lost income from car parking (which I’m sure will include the new on street parking), road closure signage etc to ensure there is no cost to the council (and consequently the tax payers). From the information on this document this total came to well in excess of £10,000 pounds. There is then a Bond put in place to cover both the use of the town centre and the car park on the race course and this is well over twice the previous figure. Not quite the token rents the Chamber of Trade prints in its news letter.

The race course being an alternative has been suggested numerous times throughout Warwick Mop’s history so perhaps we could look at that for a moment. A licensing agreement exists with the Race Course which prevents such events being held on there. Additional considerations also include by October the race course is muddy which would not be very pleasant to people visiting the Mop (hence they wouldn’t go) and would cause considerable ground damage with machinery being moved around. It is the town centre location that makes Warwick Mop as special as it is, at any other location it is a standard fair. This is probably the point that will offend you the most so please don’t jump on me, but you did open you shops knowing Warwick Mop takes place and since the age of the diesel power. Like it or loath it, the Mop is not a closely guarded secret and you could have found out about it before establishing your business’s. Finally, if it were moved to the race course it would cause disruption to people who chose to live/work outside the town centre and would have a just cause to complain at it being forced on them. I don’t wish to be as blunt as some on here but it is a point many will make and one to which there is not really any comeback.

The generators do seem to be causing a stir this year. I will put my hands up and say I’m strange; I love the smell of diesel! I guess it is like train spotters who like the smell of steam trains but it kindles up memories of the Mop when I was a child. Anyway, as I understand it there are ten generators in use in the town during the Mop fair, in recent years most generators have been converted to silent running ‘sets’ as the showmen call them. They are parked in locations around the town specifically to avoid being in close proximity to shops. Even as a mop fan I can see a generator throbbing away outside your door would be annoying. One generator is positioned right close to a shop but for some reason it was at the shop keeper’s request, he didn’t like its previous location further away. Even I’m confused on that one (perhaps he likes diesel too?) but the rest are in several clusters at street ends. Does anyone have suggestions for better locations for them?

I honestly didn’t know we had power points as I thought the idea had been rejected, however its time to get technological on you all now and refer to the comments made about voltages. Modern fairground equipment runs on three phase 415 Volts. Whilst this is a standard in many industries it is unlikely the town supplies will be that rating, plug a market stall into that voltage and the traders eyes will light up! I assume the sockets are single phase 230 Volts as in a standard household supply. The rather novel suggestion of shopkeepers providing power for smaller attraction’s is also flawed I’m afraid. Nice in theory but many of the juvenile rides are traditional older attractions and they run on 110 Volts, again plug these into a shop/power point and the kids will be going green and pulling several G’s.

Chillit there is a reason Warwick Mop cannot be steam powered. Each showman has a ‘position’ at the mop. This is a designated point where he may present his attraction and is passed through the family or sold to another showman. What this means is they can present whatever ride/attraction they have in that space but no where else in the Mop and no other showman has access to their space. In order for it to be a steam run event the showman would have to own steam powered equipment to put on it. He can substitute others equipment but a complicated subletting process is involved (won’t bore everyone with the details of how that works) and to make the event entirely steam powered would be impossible administratively. If anyone else took over the running of the event they would still have to honour the showmen’s positions. Besides if it were all steam it would be in direct competition with the Victorian Evening, which I also actually like for different reasons. If you look at archive photos of Warwick Mop you will see that today’s layout is not that dissimilar to the turn of the century, because of the position transfers, and that names on the older rides tie in with today’s families.

I can’t help you with the influx of people on here as I stumbled on it by accident during a Google search. I’m glad both sides are being discussed now though so that a sensible conclusion can be reached and people will not get the wrong impression of the event.

In terms of violence at Warwick Mop I’m a little surprised as I have never seen any personally but am willing to accept your personal experiences. I have noticed over the years that violent behaviour is becoming far more an issue with modern day life and that is a real shame. As a child I would play a considerable distance from my home, but I wouldn’t let my children do the same today. It is a sad fact that a minority can spoil it for the majority and this is why we need to fight it wherever possible. The showmen I am sure don’t want a yob element either as they don’t spend money at the Mop or shops they just cause a disturbance to those who want to enjoy themselves. There is always a Police presence at the Mop but the officer I spoke to said there’s little more trouble at the Mop than any other weekend. Maybe it is just that it is centralised on the town centre rather than incidents spread about the entire town but apparently not that bad. I was astounded therefore to read the Chamber of Trade comments of a Police cover up. If they talked to Chillit I assume they talked to other shop keepers?

I don’t want to point fingers but the Chamber does appear to have it in for the Mop and this is not the opinion of all its members now that membership is automatic. Others on here can of course make their own opinions and as I now have a cartoon style vision in my head of Mr Toad sitting typing on his antique chair in Toad Hall he may be able to help with this too. The mop review was carried out very carefully and considered the views of key individuals. Its findings were the view of the majority (which the Chamber of Trade it appears is not) and represented a much bigger picture than any one person or organisation. Each time the subject of Warwick Mop comes up the number of supporters of the town centre location greatly out weigh those against and the review findings backed this.

'my message is over the maximum length so continues below, thanks'

Continued.....

As a genuinely interested Mop fan I spoke to a lady who works in a food outlet in the town about the effect the Mop has. I was disappointed when she said they closed early until she followed it with because they sold out of stock! They had such good takings that day they had no food left to sell. This will come as a surprise to many readers on here I am sure but I cannot argue it. Years ago the shops had used to stay open much as they do for the Victorian Evening now, and some still do but it is a shame that more don’t. If the shops opened and made it more of a family event maybe the yob element would lose interest, much as I assume they have no interest in the Victorian Evening.

I noted in recent years that special arrangements are in place to ensure delivery drivers still get access to the town during mop days. I have on a number of occasions watched showmen stop work to direct a courier’s van through the rides to its destination. Something they are not obliged to do, but do out of courtesy.

I hope I have been able to add some insight to the Mop and how it is run. It fascinates me so much I could write ten times this essay on the subject. Showmen are genuinely nice people and I feel lucky to be friends with a number of them. I would suggest to any shopkeeper at this years mop have a chat to the showmen outside your shop, even if it is just to say ‘hello’ or ‘how did it go at the last place’ I’m sure you will find them interesting to talk to and maybe dispel some of the myths that sadly are still held by many today. One shopkeeper I know offers those outside his shop a regular supply of warm tea which I know is appreciated on a cold October night. Just a thought anyway, perhaps if you had names to faces and understood each other a compromise could be reached on most issues.

Cathidaw in all seriousness, was this written pleasantly?

I thought I’d add this as a separate message rather than it get lost amongst my other. Those of you that have expressed an interest in coming to the Mop this year, I say go for it! Car parking is not a problem there is a large council car park that is free to use at weekends, a multi story that is pay and display but I think only open during the day and two car parks on the race course. One shared with the showmen’s living wagons but still with plenty of space. No need to go via Birmingham to get here unless you enjoy train rides. :O)

If you are really new to the whole event why not come to the opening on the first Saturday at 12 noon? The Mayor, Town Crier, Mace Bearer’s and town officials all attend in their traditional attire. The opening ceremony is performed and charter read aloud, then the mayor and his party take a tour around the attractions granting free rides as they go and the braver members have a go themselves. Then there is the pig roast, the first slice being auctioned to the highest bidder and traditionally handed back many times for re-auction before the money is donated to the Mayors Charity. Often the showmen bid in this auction to make further contributions to the town. If you don’t want to bid you can take the cheaper route of buying some of the later slices in a pork batch. I may be biased on this one but I think they are the best pork batches in Warwick. The whole procedure is all quite a spectacle; the fair then gradually gets busier up to evening time when weather permitting the town is packed.

I would take on board Toad’s comments about the Victorian Evening, though not in preference. I do like the Victorian Evening but it is not what it was. I like the fairground element with steam galloping horses and traditional stalls and also the beautiful mechanical organ, but lately there have been radio road shows which in my opinion and that of many older people is drifting away from the traditional Victorian theme. The number of stalls in attendance has also dwindled as the rent prices have gone up. It is a shame as it would be fantastic for both events to flourish, but much as I enjoy it I don’t think the Victorian Evening is up to the hype and ‘World Famous’ status it seems to be given, surely that has to go to the amazing German Christmas Markets

Anyway, don’t take my or anyone else’s word for it, why not come yourself and see what it is all about? Certainly the Mop has had me hooked since I was a child who made friends with a lovely show lady on a rifle range. Not sure I could split match sticks with the air guns how I used to now the eye sight is going a bit but it was fun old times and still is for me!