OK so it's not in the Lord Privy Seals office where all the other Royal Charters are then?

Welcome Showman - it's good to broaden the debate.
May I take issue with a couple of your points?
I have never (and nor has anyone else I know) said I don't like the Mop or that I want it stopped. What I have said (along with many others) is that it has outgrown the town setting and should be moved to a more suitable venue (Nottingham did this several years ago and now have the very successful Goose Fair.)
I have never complained about parking - since pay and display it has been much better.
Actually, when we opened our shop it coincided exactly with the mop and no, we had not been warned! We delayed the opening and went to the pub!
It does cost a million pounds in lost turnover (not profit - there is a big difference!) because it isn't just the 6 days that the mop is in town it is the 3 weeks around the mop that is affected. All our regular customers avoid the town from the first to the last week in October because (like Easter) no one knows when it's coming - so they stay away just in case. So the million pounds is actually spread out over about 18 days; which is where the figure comes from - it's well researched with figures from those that are affected.
As to the mops success? It's strange that so many moppers tell me that their takings are awful and they only attend because they are told to. Most that I speak to wish it was at a more suitable venue.
During the revue the Chamber of Trade (representing the businesses) and many local representatives and residents said that they supported the mop but wanted it to move so that it could expand and become successful. It was the stupidity and short-sightedness of the Showmans Guild and the local council (who, illegally, refuse to put the event out to tender) that forced it to remain in the town. So it's a no win situation all round.

Toad, that was probably the most balanced reply to any thing I have seen raised on this thread, and I am for once in agreement with everything in it.

Chillit.... follow this link to the first official recording about Warwicks Charter fair I have been able to find Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs in England and Wales to 1516

Thanks for that. As far as I can see that say the fair has to be in the borough, not actually in the Market place, the Only place specifically mentioned is the Manor.. It seems to me to say it should be in August, 24th is St. Batholomews day so clearly there is some room for negotiation...
...Unless it's the feast of Simon and Jude on 28th October, which started almost 400 years after the Market charter was granted, making the market one of the oldest traditions in Warwick, by a long way so why should that have to make way for the Mop?

Dear All,

I am more than willing to broaden the debate, if this is what this thread can be called. However, I do take issue with throw away comments particularly posted by chillitt (although I am not solely pointing the blame here) which are unfounded and basically show a prejudice to the showman’s way of life!

Anyway, putting that to one side let me once again address the points you’ve raised Toad. Firstly calling the Showman’s Guild and your local Council short sighted seems a rather rash move to make. Also accusing the Council of illegal acts publicly seems rather risky to me, I personally wouldn’t like to do something such as this in case it resulted in a libel case. I wonder if many councillors read this forum? This doesn’t seem a good way to open what is supposed to be a friendly discussion or win others round to your point of view.

The town centre location is what makes Warwick Mop a Mop and not just a fun fair. I can assure you that any showman would prefer building up in a street to building up in a muddy field. Let’s imagine for just a moment you got your way and the Mop moved, to the race course (as is often suggested despite it being impossible). Opposite the race course are lots of houses all bought by people knowing the Mop happens in the town centre. Now they really would have grounds to complain if it was suddenly moved to their door step. You moved to where the fair happens by choice (a big difference), it didn’t come to you because someone else wanted it moved.

How can you possibly say people do not know when the Mop happens, unlike Easter which is a ‘moveable feast’, the Mop has been the Friday and Saturday after the 12th October for ever and a day? Each Mop town has specified dates, Stratford’s is the 12th, Southam the Monday after the 12th, Banbury Fair is the Wed/Thurs/Fri after the 12th. Notice a trend? Why not take a highlighter to the 12th October on your 2009 calendar then you can work out when it is! In addition posters are displayed in local shops as not everyone is local to the town or knows of the tradition. Maybe you are one of the shop keepers who refuse to display a poster and as such do not inform their customers of the event.

I still find the million pound figure a bit far fetched, we could all speculate lost revenue to any amount we wanted. There is also plenty of evidence to suggest many businesses do benefit. The café’s, restaurants, even the pub benefited from Toad’s opening it would appear! Indeed some businesses hold Mop promotions; again the evidence is there for all to see during the Mop. Obviously some suffer but the fact remains these businesses chose to open in a Mop town and if they did not do their homework when renting their premises can hardly complain after the event.

What I personally would like to see is an honest discussion on the matter. If instead of making ludicrous claims, posting messages about rigged games, racist showmen, balaclava clad gangs of youths and so forth you actually discussed your issues in a reasonable manner I’m sure a different result could be achieved. You can never hope to move the Mop and would waste considerable time and energy in doing so. Just as it cannot be hoped to satisfy everyone when the Mop is in town, the same must apply to other events. I’m sure people moan that the Market is not what it used to be, the Victorian Evening sells ‘flashing LED light sabres’, the craft fair closes Smith Street to traffic and so forth. If everyone worked with it and said ‘ok it happens, how can I make the best of it’ so much more could be achieved from which we could all benefit.

Mop fan, in this thread I have been called a snob, I have had my business threatened and been roundly abused for expressing my opinion. If there is anything specific that I have said that is untrue or libelous, please point it out.

As for throwaway comments, My car loaded to the gunnels, (and its a big car... ) was described as ''a lunch bag'', I think by an unregistered visitor to the site claiming to be a mop fan. Does that sound like reasoned debate to you?

Ok, Showman, but please do make sprurios remarks like "....instead of making ludicrous claims, posting messages about rigged games, racist showmen, balaclava clad gangs of youths and so forth...." They are not ludicous claims, and I take great offence to the implication that I have accused anyone of rigging games or being racist. I have actually seen the balaclaverd youths.
None of what I said is libelous. Everything has been put in writing to the council and is part of the minutes of the review. The fact that WDC owns the event is in the charter. There is no mention of any participants and therefore it should be open to all to bid to run a mop.
During the review we traders did everything we could to help the showmen with the mop, including offering to publicise it. It was like talking to the deaf.
I feel I have reached the end of the road with this debate. As the saying goes, 'if banging your head against a brick wall hurts, stop doing it.' There are more important things in life.

Chillit,

I am now beginning to find the research into this really quite interesting, as I am now finding arguments for both sides of keeping and removing the mop.

As for the dates, it is something to do with Michalmas this extract may help

(tewkesbury fair web page)

Farm workers, labourers, servants and some craftsmen would work for their employer from October to October. At the end of the employment they would attend the Mop Fair dressed in their Sunday best clothes and carrying an item signifying their trade. A servant with no particular skills would carry a mop head – hence the phrase Mop Fair.

Employers would move amongst them discussing experience and terms, once agreement was reached the employer would give the employee a small token of money and the employee would remove the item signifying their trade and wear bright ribbons to indicate they had been hired. They would then spend the token amongst the stalls set-up at the fair which would be selling food and drink and offering games to play.

Michaelmas Day is celebrated on the 29th September but Mop Fairs were tied to the seasons and the harvest, not the calendar. When the Gregorian calendar was adopted in 1752 and 11 days dropped from that year events associated with the end of the harvest moved 11 days later to the 10th October. This date is known as "Old Michaelmas Day" and since 1752 has been the date Mop Fairs take place.

Conversley... (from the shomans guild web page)

By the twelfth and thirteenth centuries the majority of English fairs had been granted charters and were reorganised to fall in line with their European counterparts. The granting of charters however did not necessarily herald the right to hold a fair: it was in effect the control of revenues
for the Crown in return for the control and organisation to stay with a particular town, abbey or village. Between 1199 and 1350 over fifteen hundred charters were issued granting the rights
to hold markets or fairs.

Like I said I am really beginnining to enjoy looking into this subject

chillitt.

Why is your comment addressed to Mop Fan when your reply is clearly about my post?

I believe that if you re-read my two previous posts on this subject you will find that I have done none of the things you comment upon. I have taken issue with comments you have made that I know to be incorrect. Had I realised it was merely you expressing your opinion and therefore not based on actual fact, I’m sure that I and others on this forum would not have taken issue with you. Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but most people state that it is just that, rather than imply that it is fact.

As a newcomer to the forum, it is not really my place to comment, but in my opinion many of your posts appear confrontational, maybe this has led to the responses you have received.

Toad

Just to clarify, I didn’t say that you did say the games were ‘bent’, that was one of chillitt’s ‘opinions’. With reference to the race comment, I quote ……

[quote="Toad"]Well what did you expect?! One of the moppers when in to a sandwich shop at lunchtime and called the guy who runs it a 'frog' because he is Portuguese. QUOTE]

Maybe a misunderstanding but I would think claiming you’d heard that and lumping all showmen together with the sweeping statement ‘They’re so rude’ is pretty close to the mark. As a point of interest referring to showmen as ‘moppers’ could cause offence as well. However, I merely used this as an example to highlight the fact that your approach is hardly pointed towards the constructive discussion I would much rather be having.

I find the assistance offered by traders curious, I was not involved in the review so could not possibly comment, but I have read copies of the Chamber of Trade’s ‘Campaign’ newsletter and they don’t exactly imply a desire to be supportive. In fact they are written in a very similar fashion to some of the posts on this forum, I wonder if that is a coincidence!

You may also find it interesting that I have witnessed a shopkeeper blatantly lie to a new shop owner about what they would experience during their first mop. I was standing right beside him as he did it and found his comments most imaginative. Perhaps you should locate and tackle the individual who does this, should you want to restore faith in the motives of Warwick’s shopkeepers.

I had hoped by joining in this thread it would be possible to have some healthy discussion but to be honest I’m not sure this is likely to happen. I suspect actually both you and chillitt enjoy arguments, as your other posts on different threads are equally controversial. In my opinion having someone on this forum with a good background knowledge of mops and the politics surrounding them, coupled with first hand experience of the antics of the shop keepers in the past, I fully understand that you may well feel you’ve reached the end of the road with this debate.

However you are right; there are more important things in life, many far more important things, bet the credit crunch and the effect it will have on tourism will do more harm to Warwick’s Town centre shops than a decade of Mops! I truly hope this is not the case as Warwick is a very pleasant town.

One final point, you say the Charter states WDC owns the event? I find that puzzling as the district council was not formed until many centuries after the charter was written, just thought you may find that amusing …please note, not trying to correct you it just gave me a good laugh.

F’north

Glad you are finding the subject of mop fairs interesting. I imagine the Tewksbury information will have come from the Preservation Society website. This society was established by supporters of Tewksbury Mop to promote the fair and protect its future for years to come.

Might I suggest we start a separate thread, perhaps in the general forum, on the history of local fairs so that the historical side is not lost amongst the other goings on within this thread?

I would be more than glad to assist in anyway I can with information about showmen or fairs, if you have any questions I can answer.

Good luck with your research.

Showman I apologise unreservedly for calling you mop fan, I don't know what came over me.
If i am so confrontational why would I post a well done for this years mop note?
What facts have I posted that are incorrect? You seem to be trying to rubbish what I have said without showing any example.
Possibly the point you refer to is me saying 'there is no Royal charter' Well there isn't. It is not a Royal charter. I do wish people would stop referring to it as such.
I am not in the least bit Anti fair or the people running them, I spent a few years attending and showing myself, at steam fairs and such like, and had a lot of fun doing it, but I would not attend any show that caused as much agrivation as Warwick Mop does.

Warwick traders are still wanting to get the mop moved:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-coventry-warwickshire-27509203

It's that time of year again: https://www.leamingtoncourier.co.uk/news/people/historic-warwick-mop-fair-returning-to-town-1-9100760

I'm not keen on Warwick Mop taking up space in the town, But that is just me being old and grumpy.
I was wondering if it can be moved, say near the racecourse , isn't there a field next to the racetrack where it can be held? I don't really go that way so I not sure.

I would have thought that it was possible with a bit of forward planning to use the racecourse itself for most of the attractions? Or am I being too sensible?